Help - rough start & run until warm?

[dmarkham]

Hi All

I'd be grateful for any advice. I had a head change on 1995 Lucida, some twelve months ago and it has run fine until recently. But recently I noticed that it didn't start up quite so instantly as normal and ran ... I'd describe as 'lumpy' or if it was petrol I'd say it seems like it is mis- firing (but as diesel clearly not the case!). But then after a little time of warming up it seemed to run okay,  (with me on edge of seat hoping and praying that this wasn't symptom of head gasket going again).  Since getting back home symptoms have got a bit more obvious although it is most noticeable when started from cold first thing in the morning. Lots of blue smoke from exhaust. If it has already run that day then starting and running later will be easier. So I took it to a local garage. They cured a slight diesel leak and clean 'ERG' (or similar?) valve, but no better and didn't know what else to suggest other than a diesel expert.

I have since put new fuel filter on and run injector cleaner through it (in hope rather than expectation that it will be cured). It does seem to run better when warm and when warm idling there was no evidence of any blue exhaust gasses, infact could not see any exhaust gases at all - which I took as a good sign. Tomorrow morning I'll find out if it has made a difference to the starting and running from cold problem.

If anyone has experience of similar problems or ideas as to what the problem might be then I'd be grateful for suggestions.

Cheers

Dom
   

[ADarbon]

after my problems i would say check the valve clearance. Where did you get the head from

[dmarkham]

Hi

The head was fitted at a garage where I bought the Lucida from with a Toyota replacement head, but I'm a bit cautious to take it back to them as I suspect the head went in the first place by them not putting enough antifreeze in the coolant system. (insisted on Toyota red since rebuild!).

This morning it ran with a lot less smoke first thing, which was a big improvement since before fitting a new fuel filter. It also runs slightly better, but is still not back to normal and still a bit more delay on start than normal.

What was the problem with valve clearances that you mentioned?

Cheers for suggestions

Dom

[ADarbon]

I had no clearence on my valves which was causing starting problems from cold. I have been told this can occur on copy heads in the first six months. I wouldnt worry about the antifreeze side of things I dont think you could have caused any problems in six months.
Do you really know they used a genuine head.

[dmarkham]

Well I'm only going on what they told me about the replacement head, but I think they reused valves from the old head, so it might well be a problem to look at.

As for the antifreeze scenario, that was probably why the head went in the first place, some fifteen months ago in a really cold spell - several days of minus six to eight degrees and then taking a run to work the heaters never got hot, but then as it was so cold outside I didn't think too much of it, especially as the bus wasn't up to normal running temperature. However, when it did some 3 miles in to my journey there was a flash of the engine warning light followed by a loud bang (very loud) as a hose was blown off and steam etc. the engine coolant that came out then formed a nice pile of freezing coolant on the road - not running away as liquid - which made me suspect frozen system together with no heater output and also subsequently finding the new radiator split.

So I'm hoping this current problem is less severe.

Dom
   

[ADarbon]

Yeah 50 50 antifreeze in the winter doesn't have too be Toyota red. I put commer red longlife in.
If they used the same valves theres a good chance the just transfered the buckets and shims which could cause you to have valve Clarence problems.
should be 0.20 - 0.30 on the inlet and 0.25 - 0.35 on the exhaust. It is easy enough to check your self if you feel up to it and i would be quite happy to guide you.
the other thing to check is all the fuel lines connections on you bleed back pipe, Injector pipes. look out for fuel leaking. if there is a little hole air could get in over night would cause a problem with starting.
There is also a filter in the fuel tank, you might want too take a look at that. There is a tutorial for it
I'll keep my thinking cap on, I check a lot of stuff when i had my starting problem, Funny thing was valve clearance was the first thing i was told but the last thing i checked.

[propnut]

Blue smoke is oil. A couple of things can cause this.

1. Turbo bearing seal leaking.
2. Valve stem seals gone
3. Piston rings or even a piston gone/worn bore.

As you say it gets better when warm I would start with the valve stem seals and then move on to doing a compression check on all cylinders.

[dmarkham]

Thanks for suggestions, I'll post the outcome when there is one. I'm just glad no one has mentioned head gasgets as a cause. Thanks for the offer of guiding me though checking valve clearances. It's a bit more than I normaly do with a car, but part of me would have enjoyed the challenge.

Dom

[dmarkham]

Hi, again

Well the garage checked heating plugs and found to be okay and suggested replacing injectors as the next thing to try, followed by diesel pump if that didn't do the trick. I'm sure all reasonable suggestions, but expensive if the problem isn't solved by these changes. So upshot is I have the bus back - short of £60 and as yet not much nearer to a solution, but can rule out heater plugs.

Valve clearances have been suggested here and I think I may have to explore the inner workings of the bus a bit more. So far I've learnt to change filters and refit brakes and discs, but haven't had the floor pan up to venture further. Suggestions on how to go about checking valves would be appreciated, anyone know if there is a tutorial or thread on this already, or a manual that would show similar procedure?

Cheers

Dom

[ADarbon]

I'm on the verge of writing a tutoral on this done one for the engine bay opening.
in short open engine bay remove rocker cover and put feeler gauge between the valve and the cam lobe when its pointing up (the egg shaped bit) should be 0.20 -0.30 for intake and 0.25 - 0.35 for the exhaust. Mainly photos for it i need to complete the write up. need to get my new shims and put them in was going to take them then.

[dmarkham]

Thanks, all info is greatly appreciated.

I'm going to venture in to new areas and have a go at checking the valve clearances as suggested.

  -  So first get access to engine by taking out seats and expose engine.
 
 -  Second take off rocker cover. Third check clearances, but I need to get      cam lobes pointing up. Can you give me any clues as to how to do this? I presume there must be a way of turning the engine over to do this.

  -  Then check the distances between valve and lobe which you helpfully listed.

Thanks for suggestions

Dom
   

[ADarbon]

Im going to put my write up on to the tips and tutorals for you but its not quite finished but hopefully you should make it out from there

[ADarbon]

Valve clearance tutorial
Heres the link

[Jason_M]

I would have to agree with checking the valve clearances first. It's simple to check and confirm the problem.

[dmarkham]

Thanks for responses, I've finally had some time to start taking seats out and do the necessary to expose the engine. Now to figure out how to check valve clearances. Am I right to assume the engine is in effect almost laying over sideways with the part that needs to be removed to check clearances being effectively the part nearest to the handbrake. If so then there are a couple of items attached that look like they need to come off first before the cover can be removed. Am I on the right lines on this one? Advise from here on would be welcome. I'm taking photos as I go and may put on the site for information for others doing these things for the first time.

I'll attach photo showing in blue the part that I presume has to come off to check clearances and the parts circeld in red are the ones that look like they need to be removed.

Cheers all, I'll keep posting as to how this one goes and will have a look through the link that was suggested.
Dom

[dmarkham]

Right I've looked through the link suggested - and very grateful - the turbo air intake is the pipe like part I've indicated in red and the part beneath in red is the one that I need to be careful not to take off before lining up timing marks. Is that right? and timing marks are found near SADS which I think I've located - I'll attach photo.
Now some sleep and have a fresh look tomorrow.   

[ADarbon]

yes use that photo and my write up and it should make sence together. Photos is the thing i need to finish the write up hoping too get my new shims soon so i can finish the job. no you need to take the front part of the timing cover off, part nerest you and on the wheel is a line you use the bolts on the sads to turn the engine

[ADarbon]

theres a heads up on what your looking at


thats the line on the cam pully that needs to point down for the vac pump to come off and when you put it back on.

[dmarkham]

I've had a look again and now taken off the turbo air intake which was quite simple. Thanks for info and photo of the cam-pulley. I was looking at a mark on disk/wheel on the engine side of the SADS, which I presume is wrong.

I'll have a go at taking off the timing cover tomorrow and if I see a cam-puley looking like the photo you put up, I'll know I'm in the right area! 

If you need photos for a tutorial I've been taking them right from first removal of seats for every step of dismantling so far.

Thanks for support

Dom

[ADarbon]

Just the little cover nearest you, you need to remove, it has a bolt top and bottom and a clip on the top edge.
just post your photos up on this thread and I can steel the ones i like best
Take your time step by step remembering what goes where.
Poke a rag down the pipe for the turbo, the last thing you want to do is drop something in there. would be very costly.

[dmarkham]

Hi
I've managed to locate and remove cam cover. Photo attached. The mark on the cam pulley is quite small, but presume this is the one that needs to point down. How accurate does this need to be? Are we taking by eye or using some sort of measure/gauge for dead vertical?

What are the other marks on the inner parts of the cam pulley for? - I've circled them in photo attached below.

Thanks for help so far. next job is to remove vac pump then the actual cover to reveal valves and cam. 

[dmarkham]

Any idea what these other marks on the inner parts of cam pulley are?

[ADarbon]

Any idea what these other marks on the inner parts of cam pulley are?

one to the top is locator to the wood ruff key for putting the pully on the cam shaft, locating pin to the right i think the other markings lower too that i cant help.
as long as the mark is pointing down the vac pump spring will be released and will make removal and replacing easier.

[dmarkham]

Brill, thanks for help. I'm going to take off vac pump and then uncover cam and valves and will measure gap tomorrow once I've got the tools to do so.

[ADarbon]

just a simple flick fealer gauge is fine. i got the little pocket micrometer not too acurate but i was penny scatching at the time
The pocket micrometer turned out to be well out and useless

[dmarkham]

I'll put a couple of posts in with attached photo (I 'm not sure how to insert photos into the text) showing progress. First was removal of vac pump. 4 bolts not too hard to get using extension bar and came off easily enough

[dmarkham]

After removal of vac pump then undid rocker cover (if that is correct terminology) bolts 10mm. Most of these were easy to reach except for two on the lower left as you look from the drivers door as my socket and wrench would not fit on due to space. One of those devices that connets socket bar and socket but allow to turn at an angle would have been good. I managed to fiddle them off with a 10mm spanner. Once wiring unclipped and other rubber tube unclipped the cover lifted away easily to reveal the cam and valves.

[dmarkham]

The cam and valves now safely revealed. I have photoed each set of valves and would appreciate comments as the one nearest the front of bus, - Number 1 cylinder I guess - looks different to the others. It has a milky stone colour on the centre part of the cam, but also to the edges of the cam lobe and looks like possibly to the edge of one of the valves indicated in the attached photo with arrows. I've also attached images of the rest of valves which look okay I think.

Any ideas as to what the creamy coloured part on the cam means would be helpful as could be a clue to the original problems/symptoms. Original problems were a very very slight delay on starting up first thing and then lumpy running until warm (like a mis fire - but obviously not petrol) and again very slight loss of power on steep hills. 

I guess to do feler gauge part of checking clearances the cam point as it were should be directly away from valve. I also guess that that is achieved through turning the engine via a socket onto the SADS bolts.

I'd appreciate it if you cuold tell me which were teh inlet valves as gaps are different to exhaust valves I believe.

Feel free to use attached photos for your tutorial on valve clearances.

[rune]

Would the milky/gold colour be k-seal? Has any been added to the coolant? If it has then there may be a leak - cracked head - and thats the copper flakes thats in it.

Other thought is emulsified oil. Does it wipe off or is it crusty?

[dmarkham]

Thanks for suggestions, really appreciated. It's definitely not K-seal or any additive to coolant as I've had the bus since the head was replaced some 18months ago. I haven't tried to wipe it off yet, but will look this morning. What would emulsified oil mean?

[rune]

When water is churned up in oil it is called emulsified. Basically the oil and water looks like mucky whitish gloop. One of the signs of the head gasket gone (or head cracked) - although I really hope its not.

As an aside - margarine is emulsified vegetable oil and water. I believe it was invented for during the napoleonic campaigns to provide an alternative to butter which went off

[dmarkham]

Thanks for explanation on emulsified oil and the Napoleonic reference, which lightens the mood when following talk of cracked heads!

As for my crank - the whitish colour doesn't wipe off and it doesn't seem to be something that chips off, as experimenting with a small screw driver nothing chipped off at all, it just left a slight mark if the screw driver was run over it.

So I'm not sure if this is likely to be a result of emulsified oil.

[dmarkham]

Well I checked valve clearances. I used standard feeler gauges ( I still had from setting points in VW Beetles - a long time ago). I turned engine over using a socket bar on the bolts on the SADS and each time one of the cam lobes (if that is right terminology) pointed directly away from the valve I measured the gap by trying to slide the feeler gauge in carefully.

Results - from the left when looking at engine from driver's door the first valve clearance was at least .3, but the next didn't have even .05 clearance. Then the next pair of valves the clearance was at least .3 on the one on the left and not even .05 on the one on the right. On the next pair the left hand pone had clearance of at least .3, and the on eon the right had clearance of .15. On the last pair of valves the one nearest the front of the bus the clearance was not even .05 on either valve. Th elater also happens to be where the cam had the slightly odd white colouring on it. (the edge of the valve itself actually looks okay. I'll attach photos below.

I guess now I have to figure out how to actually try and reset clearances. But good news in a way if it means I do not have cracked head etc.

Any ideas why valve clearances should be so far out now after head replaced some 18months ago? Do these generally change over time or are they things that wear or get set wrong in first place. I suppose I'm wondering if valve clearance problems indicate any other problems with valves.

Anyway I'm sort of glad that there is something wrong with clearances? 

[rune]

Hi, Im not sure about the estimas, but on my bikes you needed to turn the engine until one valve was fully open and then measure the gap on another, specific, valve. You couldnt just stick the feelers in when a lobe was pointing upwards.The tappets would clatter like hell if done differently.

Tony Darbon is the fella to let you know the correct method to check/set the valve clearances.

[ADarbon]

its in the tutoral i have written yes you checked the clearance right. questions on why first if the valve where a straight swap from your old engine they could have just not been right in the first place. or the buckets the shims sit in could be cheep and warps slightly since fitted. for now just replacing the shims is fine you need to remove each shim (the shiny disc to the top of the valve seated in the bucket) measure the thickness an accurate micrometer needed, then take away the amount of clearance needed from the thickness of the shim that give you the thickness of shim you need. i have a chart that gives the size numbers i post it up just got too find my scanner. if you get the sizes before that pot the measurements up and I'll tell you the size numbers also check the shims i got too see if any are good too you. Toyota sell them about £6.50 a shim. look at my write up and pm me for any more help.

[dmarkham]

Thanks for responses all very appreciated. I feel like I'm not doing too badly, just doing everything for the first time, without knowing quite what all the correct names are for things is a bit daunting. So I just need to figure out getting shims out and replace with correct sizes. Can I just check that when you say 'shims and buckets' that I'm looking at the right things. I'll indicate what I think they are in the attached photo. The only bit I can see that would correspond are indicated by arrow - is the red one pointing to the shim? and is the blue the bucket?  Sorry for my ignorance on this, but I guess I'd better expose it completely at this stage!

Thanks

[ADarbon]

yes spot on, there is a tool set too get them out which consist of a plier that goes around the cam shaft and pushes the valve down a locking tool that wedges between the edge of the bucket and the cam shaft to hold it down you remove the pliers and use a screw driver and magnetic finger tool too remove the shim. with out the tool set you can use a strong flat screwdriver with electrical tape on the tip so it dont scratch, wedge it between the valve and cam lob push the valve down, than you need an alan key thats had the end shorted too lock the valve down

[dmarkham]

Thanks for confirmation that I'm still on the right track.

Do you have any idea as to where I can get hold of the valve tool set? Are these tool sets specific to the Estima or particular cars/models? I'll have a browse on ebay and see what comes up. 

[ADarbon]

snap on is your best be I do have a thred some where I have posted a picture of them. hopefully i will do mine on thursday and could lend you mine not promising because me and my sceduals dont often work out.

[ADarbon]

Valve clearence tools
check that thread out

[dmarkham]

Thanks, I'll check the thread out

[dmarkham]

Quick update on valve clearances. I went in to Toyota to find out about tools for removing shims, but was told side tracked by parts department telling me that the problems wouldn't be caused by valve clearance and that I wouldn't need to ever order smaller shims. The cost of the tool set was something around £120. So I left a little confused and ordered the devise that holds the valve down (sort of 's' shape tool) as that could be bought separately for £12 or so. On a positive note the guy at Toyota did kindly photocopy the section from the manual they use for measuring the valve clearance and methods of adjusting.

I went back fearing that I had done things wrong to double, triple check all valve clearances, but the results were the same so I spoke with my more informed brother, and he reckons it is not the shims that wear, but the fact that the valves gradually wear into the valve seats that causes the loss of gap betwen shim and cam lobe - hence need for thinner shims to maintain gap. So then st back on original course of removing shims. 

Using a large screw driver with plastic around I forced the valve down and propped the 's' tool in between the cam shaft and the bucket to hold bucket down so that shim could be removed. However it took quite a lot of fiddling and persistence to pop the shim out using a small screw driver and magnetic pickup tool as advised. Today I ordered a new shim from Toyota, for cost of £8 or so and they  aid it was the same as used in the Picnic. So Thursday I'll be fitting it back in and then if I manage to do all that successfully, I'll replace all the inlet shims before reassembling and hoping the starting problems are solved.

[ADarbon]

Hopefully it will solve the problem. I know it will solve my starting problem when i finally get the new shims

[gard79]

Hi there
   Can you please tell me if adjusting your valve shims cured your running problem as have the same problem with mine and at a loss? Thanks 

[ADarbon]

Mine is put some of my new shims in today still got to get a couple more.
Dom good idea getting the one shim use it in each to get a measurment for them all thats what i did today will get the right sizes now

[dmarkham]

Just about to order the rest of the shims. I'll update next week once they are all back in and see if my problems are cured.. or not.

[ADarbon]

unfortunatly the thing with trile and error I only sugested shims because it was the cause to my problems just hope it is yours too so you can relax and enjoy your bus.

[dmarkham]

Well the clearance (or complete lack of them) were way out and would need doing anyway and there a relatively cheaper option than starting to replace diesel pumps and injectors which was the garages trial and error method - (and of course I may still end up going doing this route). But at least I am learning something new by doing the valve clearances.

I've replied to your email about sending spare shims down to me as I could make good use of them. When I've finished the job I'll list the sizes of the ones I take out if others could make use of them.

[ADarbon]

Well the clearance (or complete lack of them) were way out and would need doing anyway and there a relatively cheaper option than starting to replace diesel pumps and injectors which was the garages trial and error method - (and of course I may still end up going doing this route). But at least I am learning something new by doing the valve clearances.

I've replied to your email about sending spare shims down to me as I could make good use of them. When I've finished the job I'll list the sizes of the ones I take out if others could make use of them.

there in the post as of monday I am going to start a thread for spare shims just add your sizes too it try and keep it together will make it easy for other members to find there sizes

[dmarkham]

Just to up date this thread - shims are now all in and checked gaps which are all within limits. Over next couple of days I'll be piecing it all back together and testing to see if the problem is solved.

Just one question if anyone can help - With the cam/rocker cover there is a seal/rubber gasket do I need to replace this or clean in any special way or apply additional sealants before refitting?

[ADarbon]

If the rubber still looks in good condition then just clean up both serfaces get some gaskit sealent and smear all round and replace go easy on the cover bolts they dont take much to snap, I found hand tight and just a quarter turn seems to do the trick. Ive tried the recomended tork setting and they snapped.
If you want to get a new gaskit easily obtained on ebay jap auto  or motorfactors should do a blue print part for it
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOYOTA-EMINA-ESTIMA-LUCIDA-3CT-2-2-ROCKER-COVER-GASKET-/110125395876?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a3fc2fa4

[dmarkham]

Thanks for advice on gaskets and good web link.

I've now put everything back together on the bus. Then after a few anxious thoughts (of what I may have left ondone etc. ) started the bus and took it out for a test run and .. guess what ... YES...problem fixed no more rough running - JOY - RELIEF. Ran from cold this morning fully loaded up with children and no problems. So the advise on here to do the valve clearances was spot on. I'm so so glad I didn't let the diesel (expert) garage start replacing injectors and fuel pumps as they suggested. In the process I've also learnt a lot - which includes fantastic support on this web site - thanks .

Hopefully my thread and pictures may be useful to others.

Cheers

[ADarbon]

Well done Dom glad all is working well and has made the fix much cheeper. some times experiance out ways the brains of garage grease monkey but hay where all APES here.
If it's ok with every one else i might just make this thread a pin up to make it easy to find for other members.

[ADarbon]

A link to other threads with the same problems
also have rough running till warm
shims from toyota
spare Shims

[drawocssor]

congrats on another happy bus! have been following the thread with interest. has given me the effort to have a look at my clearances next week end. The bus does start too bad at all but as I am running veg it might be worth a look at!

[dmarkham]

Well just to complete this thread I can tell you I've been up in Northumberland on hols. fully loaded up, couple hundred miles and all running well.
 
I can also add one thing for anyone that might use this thread as a guide to doing shims. I did find that when shims are removed if you try to turn the engine the cam lobes get stuck as they hit the buckets (just getting the hang of all the jargon now) so don't be tempted to force the engine round if you get resistance when turning it over to refit shims.

Having read Paul's similar problems it seems shims should always be checked some 12 months after new head refits.

Happy days again in the bus